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History Lesson in 4T

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  • August 20, 2012 at 8:33 pm #101757

    Darren
    Member

    When did the world become 4T for dirt bikes? Coz I missed it completely.

    2T was always for racing and 4T trails and farms etc. What happened? Was it emissions standards? Did the market change? Were they banned for a while?

    I’ve noticed you can still buy a YZ 125 and 250, RM 125/250 too I think (not sure about KX and CR)… is there still a class for them or is it only nostalgics and freestylers that buy them?

    Seems from observation and reading that dirt bikes took a bit of ‘dip’ in popularity in the early 2000’s due to “the change” but over the past 5-6 years they’re back in a big way, does this sound right or is just because “I’m back” into it :)

    History Lesson input? Opinions?

    PS this isn’t to start a whole “my 4T will kick the crap out of your 2T” and vice-versa thread, simply to understand the “what” and the “when”

    August 20, 2012 at 8:56 pm #228172

    Mick D
    Member

    I am thinking that once they got a 4T to rev like a 2T is what began the perceived demise of the 2T.

    I was standing next to a bloke at the races one day, he hadn’t been to the track for about 8 years and the 4T revolution happened during that period. He looked at me with a straight face and said” WTF is going on? In my day only poor c#@*$ and farmers rode 4 strokes!”

    August 20, 2012 at 9:20 pm #228176

    alan
    Member

    yamaha brought out the yzf400 and it cracked and they changed the rules in the 250 two stroke class to alow 450 4 strokes to compete in it that was the end of the two stroke.but there still out there old people like us ride them

    August 20, 2012 at 10:10 pm #228173

    Scott Southwell
    Member

    Emission laws in California (The biggest dirt bike market in the world) outlawed 2T. This meant the manufacturers had to change tack to sell bikes in this huge market and the rest of us got dragged along for the 4T ride.

    August 20, 2012 at 10:43 pm #228177

    Greg
    Member
    Scotty wrote:
    Emission laws in California (The biggest dirt bike market in the world) outlawed 2T. This meant the manufacturers had to change tack to sell bikes in this huge market and the rest of us got dragged along for the 4T ride.

    California is less than 8% of the total world market I have read, thats total world market. I cant see one state in the world create the change you are talking about Scotty not a market share that small (yes the largest sale area in the world but still small in world sales percentages). It may have had something to do with it, California has the toughest emission laws in the world at the moment the laws are changing all over the world California is just in front of everyone else. They all end up where California is just 4 years later on average. Emission laws all over the world are getting tighter year by year. All countries catch up through their agencies over time and then the world catches up. I teach emission controls every day and struggle to keep on top of it :blush:

    I think like Rocket pointed out the YZ400 was developed and was a winner (and fitted into emission laws and future emission laws), technology jumped leaps and bounds and as KTM as proved what wins on Sunday sells on Monday. Two stroke development stalled or didn’t grow at the same rate four stroke development did and maybe that cycle is about to swing back if you believe the two stroke riders.

    TB

    August 20, 2012 at 11:19 pm #228174

    Scott Southwell
    Member

    Small market overall TB but I from what I remember the YZ400F was developed as a direct response to the Californian law change. At the time the Japanese took the Californian market very seriously as what sells there will have an influence on other markets. Wanabe’s all round the would vidoes of freestylers at Glammis and run out and buy what they rode, hence the reason MX bikes are such big sellers.

    PS, is 8% overall motorcycle sale or offroad bike sales? if overall the scooter markets in asia will easily be the biggest.

    August 21, 2012 at 12:31 am #228178

    Steve Wyeth
    Member

    I thought Honda were responsible for the big 4t push as they decided to stop making 2t’s first. It would seem that one for one reason or the other MA also decided to allow bigger capacity 4t’s to be put into the same class as 2t’s so the 4t’s could be competitve, without this ruling I’m sure 4t’s wouldn’t have taken off as they would have gotten whipped at every race (250 2t V 250 4t).

    The 4t technology has come a long way and 2t hasn’t. The same technology written in the Gordon jennings 2t handbook in the 80’s is still 100% applicable today. We are on the verge on DI 2T’s but I don’t know how far it will go. It might be too little too late and unless the big guns like Honda and Yamaha start producing these bikes again I think the 2t’s will remain popular, but less so than 4t’s.

    With the uprising of ‘extreme enduro’ 2t stroke sales have been increasing year on year and up until the 350F came out the 300 2t was KTM’s best selling bike.

    I hope they continue the development of both, it’s always nice to have options.

    August 21, 2012 at 1:18 am #228179

    glenn
    Member

    The world worked out that KTM 4 strokes rocked so it changed. That’s it end of story now go to bed you lot.

    Boony
    The wise one

    August 21, 2012 at 2:22 am #228180

    pete
    Member
    moto wrote:
    I’m sure 4t’s wouldn’t have taken off as they would have gotten whipped at every race (250 2t V 250 4t).

    B) B) B) B) yeaaahhhhh B) B) B) B)

    August 21, 2012 at 2:24 am #228183

    drew
    Member

    correct me if i’m wrong. did the GP bikes going away from 2T have a bearing on 4T engine development?

    i have a vague memory that there was a capacity/cylinder restrictions on 2T running in the same class as 4T ruling, similar to what was implemented in MX some years later. ?

    August 21, 2012 at 2:28 am #228187

    Matt Baker
    Member
    pete the wulf wrote:
    moto wrote:
    I’m sure 4t’s wouldn’t have taken off as they would have gotten whipped at every race (250 2t V 250 4t).

    B) B) B) B) yeaaahhhhh B) B) B) B)

    These days the 250f motocross bikes have just about as much power as a 250 2t and are easier to ride so they will still be more popular and win races.

    In the Motocross Des Nations a few years ago Ryan Villapoto was racing against 450s on his 250f and winning, even getting holeshots. Obviously his bike has shit loads more grunt then a standard 250.

    August 21, 2012 at 3:15 am #228188

    pete
    Member

    Geez LC you won’t let us 2T’s have any fun will you :P :P :laugh: :laugh:

    Does anyone think 2t’s will come back ?
    I haven’t looked into this but I was told that some of the freestyle guys are running old bikes because they some brands don’t make the 2t’s anymore ( I don’t follow the freestyle )

    PTW

    August 21, 2012 at 3:26 am #228191

    Matt Baker
    Member

    More and more freestylers are using 4 strokes but I think only because the bike company they are sponsored by don’t make 2 strokes (which sucks)

    August 21, 2012 at 3:40 am #228189

    Steve Wyeth
    Member
    LC4skin wrote:
    These days the 250f motocross bikes have just about as much power as a 250 2t and are easier to ride so they will still be more popular and win races.

    Back when 4t’s started to be pushed there was a gulf of difference in HP. The guy I ride with every weekend rides a 2003 250SX and it smashes my 300 in terms of outright power. The 300 makes over 50+ hp stock, way more than a stock MX250. The 250F’s go hard and they do have better traction but they DONT make the same power. It’s the whole reason as a 250 2t owner you have to race in 450F class.

    I’m not talking about factory bikes where anything is possible when you can replace an engine after every race, I’m talking about stock for stock like you buy from the dealer.

    Pete – All the big extreme races, Red Bull Last Man Standing, Erzberg, Wildwood Rock (in Aus) etc. are dominated by 2 strokes. They already have made a resurgance in the last few years.

    I highly doubt they will truly come back to their former glory though.

    August 21, 2012 at 5:21 am #228192

    Matt Baker
    Member

    Stock 2012 KX250F (apparently the most powerful 250) 39.5 HP :ohmy: :ohmy: :ohmy:

    Add a pipe and some other little bits and it will even haul my big arse around :laugh:

    Would love to have a ride on one!

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