Credit where credit is due

[AlexMember]

No offence taken. Good read. My point however was more focused on your idea that because someone or ones at ADB has an opinion (PDS=crap) that correlates with your opinion therefore they must now have their act together on all things (after seemingly being off track for all these years)….
It sounded silly, then a little funny, but mostly silly. Magazines like a bunch of mates around the campfire, like a group of Internet forum posters, have their opinions and experiences have their fair share of b-shit and some truth in there somewhere – nothing new here.
I too have a nice scar where my collarbone was screwed back together from what some would say PDS related action, although jumping a log at 2km/hr and blaming that on PDS is a long bow.

To me your efforts would have sounded better like this:

“ADB seems to be a better read nowdays – in my opinion. On a sidenote, PDS is still crap.”

Note: I have been away from forums for a while so am argumentative for some reason now I’m back.

[alanMember]

give it to him axel keep the arguments up woo hoo .just came back from a mud fest ride when you getting back on the bike axel.

[AlexMember]

Been in Europe for 2 months rocket. Only been back a few days and am sleep deprived and irate. When I was in Austria I saw 4 KTMs: an old 400 LC4 and 3 KTM mountain bikes! We must buy them all? WTF.
It would be a mud fest out there. You environmental vandal, no wonder the Greenies are ass kicking our sport.
I’m too fat to ride, must have put on another 8kg.
I haven’t had anyone come out to buy my 300. Dubbo is just too far. Might drop it off to ekipS at Lithgow to sell for me, there’s an idea. I’d get a Yamaha next but for the dangerous cable-pull clutch on those things. When are they going to learn that hydraulic clutches are the way to go?

[alanMember]

the yamahas have got dangerous bouncy things bolted to the front wheels don t get one of them.blue granades they call them out here.definatly an environmental vandel today axel fun but

[Aaron WildeMember]

I realise some of the comment have been written in jest but… This discussion has turned to blue againts orange. It was orignally PDS and ADB’s Subjectivity. PDS was created for a reason. Just like reverse engine config was. Weather it performs better than the old design will always be up for discussion. KTM have dropped the idea on some of their mx bikes. If yamaha drop the BTF engine I guess that will mean the advantages were not enough to justify the changes(or the GFC). After seeing TB’s post on the technic trip, having less bearings subject to water on an enduro/trail bike is a great idea. Dont know how often it happens but sometimes PDS unload unpredictively. Sometimes people ride around on linked bikes with the link totally seized and it breaks the link(I know this because it happened to a mates bike) Somebody has to try this stuff or we would still be riding bikes with springer front ends, points, twin rear shocks, drum brakes. If you dont like it vote with you feet an go somewhere else to buy a bike. KTM have enough loyal fans to get them through the R and D. Just as i will buy the next WR that comes out if it is based on the YZ. And i will have to suck up any tears associated with teething problems.

[Bruce CurtisMember]

Rule #1 let someone else buy the re-engineered new release models
Rule #2 Bikes are emotional, if you just gotta have it, you will get one by hook or by crook (just ask my long suffering wife0
Rule #3 If your old bike is P1ssing you off see rule #1 & 2
Rule #4 Some design faults can be riiden around, some others can be fixed, a few are just too big.

00-05 KTMs had a very similar front geo to the XR250, but put that with a MONO-X ripoff design and a high-po engine, well do a search on many forums and see why blokes who are serious and others (like me) who delude themselves they are have vowed never again until KTM fixes that inbalance.

WRs are boring with questionable front-end suspension
CRFs, are a chassis looking for KTMs engines
Kawasaki are middle of the road, reliable, but uninspiring in many ways
Suzuki are far too conservative and are playing a “wait & see” with little R&D relying on past glories
The euros (generalising here)ARE the only ones moving forward with confidence and results that are more positive than negative, sometime two steps forward and one back, but if we wait for the companies whose hearts are in bottom line and not passion in the boardroom, this is way it’s gunna be.
And if a magazine calls it the way their test riders see it, I’ll subscribe, even if it does annoy a section of us, I remember my beloved “D” model RMs got third in most ADB shootouts that year, yet at clubman meets they were always in the top three, sometimes all top three, but that was when power was rated over handling and easy forgiving nature.

[GregMember]

This thread is now shit enough to be in a magazine

Put the PDS guys down and leave them alone Bruce

TB

[Aaron WildeMember]

Trailboss wrote:

Quote:

This thread is now shit enough to be in a magazine

Put the PDS guys down and leave them alone Bruce

TB

I thought he was putting them down :laugh:

[Bruce CurtisMember]

Ok here it is

It is impossible for any single rate or even a offset fixed end suspension system to get a true linear rising rate, now if you understand what rising rate means to a suspesnion system and how it keeps the bike “floating’ over the trash in our path, you will acknowldege that just like the second generation Mono-x with all the crap Yamaha told us and threw at it the fixed linkless systems are far harder to dail in, and get anywhere near as versatile for a range of speeds and conditions.
This is basic engineering, if it is simplicity without performance compromise, I will laud it as the way to go, see a desmo-dronic valve train for that, or a mechanical/spring resistance powvalve system, especially when it is simple to tune with dismantling the bike (ala KTM) but when it is a simplistic approach that doesn’t work as well, and sometimes is downright dangerous, well I may be myopic at times but not so I wouldn’t dump that dog and run (which I did), and while they (PDS equipped bikes) have got better since around ’08, they are especially in the 2T unpredictable. It’s about balance too, to make the PDS work better KTM has had to soften the power delivery in the lightweight 2T and to move the weight bias sublety forward to get the forks to take more of the handling duties, relagating the rear to a “follow me” design. have you ever tried to turn a KTM 2T with the front pawing in the air under real hard acceleration… well don’t they are a right handful in this regard, which is something I can hop onto almost any rear biased linked dirtbike and not even think about doing without wrestling with the bugger.
Maybe it’s my riding style steeped in 2 decades of competitive MX, but I still watch the fmx outcasts who dare ride KTMs struggle with landings or just controlling the bike just as they leave the ramps.
Another cry I hear is but “watts And the giant Pommie won the wec on PDS” true and not unexpectedly because the WP factory setups where dialed in and setup for one speed only, theirs, not ours.
No KTM PDS has ever worked in MX or SX at a higher level where riders abilities are very close and it usually comes down to bikes set-up, now you may say what has MX or SX got to do with trailriding, well heaps because they stop start, have stutter, and whoops, soemtimes sand and kickers, which are hit at various speeds, just like us. I rode an SX250 a few years back it is the only engine I preferred to my YZ, but the chassis was like a 750 hp VK commodore, not fun at all, so my dislike of PDS, is not a dislike of KTM, gees the 540 is still one of my “if I had a musuem” bikes, and the 96-97 300 still makes me smile at’s pure ground speed and ability to “float” over whatever I handed to it.

PDS is a flawed system in comparison to what ktm has had and what is now on their rivals and yet to be by them, just like the full floater a brilliant theory which works in certain situations but not everywhere. maybe what it is, is a no compromise suspension that takes no prisoners, I owned one loved it briefly have ridden heaps more, the best was Menaces, but still kicked when it shouldn’t and he is around my weight so similar reactions.
The best system in theory without active control is a negative to positive system with the shock independant of the chassis essentially “floating” on two fulcrums,(TB & I discussed this at length a little while back too) unfortunately for 4 years or so Suzuki and to a lesser degree Kawasaki had them, but the pressures on the shock were immense and Kayaba, Showa and Ohlins couldn’t build anything that would retain the oil & nitrogen under sustained pressures. If i had a reason to hate a suspension system it would be that one as it deprived me of a future in competitive MX (not that I was ever going to be a world beater, but by christ I loved racing) and gave me serious head injuries that have plagued me for 26 yrs now, but i don’t because when it worked and you kept shocks up to it there was nothing better, and it was cutting edge.
I dislike PDS because the evidence is out therein the broken necks of juniors in loretta lynns, in the multitude of riders who have said just as I, and still KTM have a package that would be the absolute best f they just listened and learnt.

I know Dave will disagree with me, but I have watched and learnt and ridden, even my own son on his sevral MA-50s, then two sx-50s was fast but had unexplained get-offs that destroyed his confidence and speed, put him on a linkage bike set it up and tune it for his style and size and voila he is faster, safer and happier and he is unaware of the basic deifferences the bikes have, just tells me “it’s better” handling, but he reckons the KTMS brakes were better (which the are) and the engines were more fun (which also they were). but out of the mouths of babes.

There had my say, if you’re happy with it no probs, never take this as a personal insult we all love different things in a bike, I am still suspicious of yamahas gearboxes and cranks, but that’s not as likely to cause me a visit to rehab again, more avisit to the bank and a few months sourcing bits & rebuilding, however maybe next time you’re lying on the ground wondering WTF happened, think about what did actually go wrong.

[dennis da menaceMember]

fishing Bruceee??? :laugh: :laugh:

heres the bite you were looking for :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

this thread reads to me like another anti PDS, anti ktm rant about suspension that was in DEVELOPMENT during the ‘supremely dangerous 99-04’ models.
come out of the dark ages bruce.
i, and i think most KTM riders couldnt give a rats arse about 99-04 as its old news. it is a dark patch on KTM in history but theyve learnt from it.
all bikes have come a long way since then bruce, as you have previously agreed.

Hmmm, now i see KTM has made a linkaged 350…to suit a market called something like “US manmade arena SX/MX commercialcross”. i believe the 350 is lighter, has better power delivery and jumps like a grasshopper, especially made for that boring crap.
good on them i say, its the only discipline of the dirtbike genres they dont EXCEL in!!
and whats that im hearing on the street?, with a little work KTM will be back on the podium again in the states. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
it really is a purpose built bike to do one thing, race stuff with big jumps.

i watch a lot of bike stuff and racing on foxtel and it seems everywhere else in the world, KTM kick arse…..even with that ‘horrible’ PDS system 😆 😆

they do really well in the british motocross champs, euro champs, indoor champs, world ENDURO champs, and any extreme ENDURO stuff…….mostly the natural terrain stuff, strangely enough….could that be where PDS really shines?
or could Knighter and Taddy and all them blokes be wrong?
they seem to be able to somehow overcome this dastardly suspension and whoop arse a lot:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
over there, the Mighty Orange glow is everywhere :laugh: :laugh:

oh look, theres the word i was looking for EN-DU-RO. :laugh: :laugh:

thats right ktm make ENDURO bikes, really, really fucking good ones. :woohoo:
they make motards and adventure bikes and roadies and cars that are top of their tier and all purpose built.

and guess what bruceeeeey…

now they make arena-cross bikes. :woohoo: :woohoo:

i cant wait for the day KTM is on top in the US, coz thats about the only place they arent…..

then what will you bag KTMs for mate??

i wonder if it will be thier…

Brembo brakes with pre wired-quick change calipers,
Magura clutch,
Vforce reeds,
nifty (but expensive) stand rubber holderer,
11.5 litre tank,
keyed steering lock,
changable ignition curve,
electric start,
multi function speedos,
‘twin air’ filter,
keihin carb,
maintenance free battery,
adjustable power valve…

could be any of those sweet factory bits that they come standard with

or is it just the fact that i only use half as much 2 stroke oil as your yama-saurus :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

i know, i know, blueboy, youre an ex motocrosser etc etc, sit back and pin it etc etc, back in the day etc etc…

you are old enough and ugly enough to be stubborn and set about your ways (and colours) without question, but alas my friend, like an old hound you dont wanna learn any new tricks, you just wanna lick your nuts till they turn BLUE :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

so anyway after 13 years of “getting it wrong” now the wankers testes in magazines are suddenly right enough for you to re-subscribe??

oh please :laugh: :laugh: pull the other one bruce :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

you are not that cheap :laugh:

phfffooo, have your hook back mate, it needs rebaiting

happy fishing bruce

menace :kiss:

[Bruce CurtisMember]

I knew i’d drag you out of the hole Dennis, how ya be my friend, back coming along well?

No i genuinely don’t like PDS, I rode a 4t after yours this year and considered yours to be vastly better, love everything else KTM the engines the ergos, I’m not KTM bashing I’m trying to get a feel on why not go linear rising rate?

the top level boys have access to the WP factory stuff, no way would they be racing on what’s under yours or anyone elses PDS, this is part of my argument, not to mention they usually have the ability to ride through a “dead area” of a bikes handling, and they all have them no matter the bike or brand.
I watched a loretta round from america, and the cobras rear ends (thoug still some form of fixed linkless system, was head and shoulders over the other juniors on KTMs, and some of the endos make you wince and wish you hadn’t seen a little bloke or blokette do that.

Maybe it is opinion, but i have looked at it, and tried to keep an open mind, and like i told you at Yabbra, they have come a long way, but the tuneability is still limited and maybe some like Terry haye and Dave can get it right, I couldn’t even with terries advice and work.

I rode a CRF with showa “factory” springers, not OEM, and it opened my eyes right up as to what is out there and the limitless tuneability of minor link rates and fulcrums in line with valving and spring rates, would love to ride a GHR one, reckon it would blow any of our minds.

Why I get so cranky at KTM the company is exactly your argument, everything else is so bloody good, head and shoulder above the competition, why destroy it with PDS, when the 96 model was so good and they were on the right track, I honeslt y believe they are stubborn and no less than hinda with the 4T.

Went close to trying to buy the one remaining GG nambotin recently, despite my online name here, which is more to do with a movie than my bias (i actually loved my zooks more), it’s like when I joined DBW as “HiVIs, even though I had three hondas & a zooki at the time, Hivis is my job, not my colour.

I WANT to get on a KTM300 in 2012 and think, “I am buying one as long as it will not spit me off unless I deserve it from my own stupidity”.

Again KTM riders are abit like harley riders, they will point to BOTT and speedway championships and go WELL?

Too defensive got about as much to do with it as WEC and NT at professional level has.

Linkage is not the be all and end all, in some regards they are a dog too, the be all, well that is yet to be, I’d like to think that KTM or Husky or GG do it first as they deserve to for the continued R&D they do with the 2T powerplant.

[Craig HattonMember]

Great read guys

Me, I won’t be changing from my PDS, my 450 far outweighs my ability, I love the thing every time I go riding, I will never use it to it’s full potential and doubt that there are many who do. PDS, no PDS, we all get a kick in the arse from time to time and when I do, I don’t think it’s the PDS, I think it’s the terrain, i am after all riding in the bush and thats what it’s all about for me. Every time I get back from a ride i have a grin from ear to ear, whether riding with PDS or without.

Hatto

[alanMember]

Mr Blue wrote:
I’d like to think that KTM or Husky or GG do it first as they deserve to for the continued R&D they do with the 2T powerplant.[/quote]don t you think there wasting there time with two strokes just look at the results in the mx and sx championships around the world lucky to get anyone to enter a race on one .there outdated and there power delivery is not suited to racing unless your old and sit on the back of the seet :laugh: :woohoo: :side: so i spose its okay for them to persist with pds back in the day i road a ktm400 2001 model back to back with my wr400 2000 model the wr had the beter moter but the ktm handled and steered heaps better?was funny to follow but the back seemed to skip around a lot. i like this thread its fun

[AlexMember]

Ya full of crap rocket.
It’s way too hot in this kitchen.

[alanMember]

yep and heaps of it axel

[Author]

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