Has KTM seem the light, R.I.P PDS

[DavidMember]

rutnut75 wrote:

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Live On PDS i say. If it aint broke dont fix it. This is one of the things i love about my KTM. No high maintenance linkages! Is there really any advantage to having the linkage?

Sometimes in extreme super cross situations

[AlexMember]

rutnut75 wrote:

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Live On PDS i say. If it aint broke dont fix it. This is one of the things i love about my KTM. No high maintenance linkages! Is there really any advantage to having the linkage?

That will start an onslaught of technical opinions… hopefully no-one will notice.

In my opinion the answer is yes and no.
Linkages allow the factory to make changes to suit the shock absorber. KTM and WP try and make a shock that don’t need the linkages and perform the way we want.
Simple overall design.
Complicated shock design however and more difficult to tune.
The suspension gurus I would imagine prefer a simple shock setup they can mess with.

I still stand by that 90% of “us” are not good enough to know any difference, or any better

[DeanMember]

rutnut75 wrote:

Quote:

Live On PDS i say. If it aint broke dont fix it. This is one of the things i love about my KTM. No high maintenance linkages! Is there really any advantage to having the linkage?

slamming into logs and and sharp square edged holes,bigtime pogo stick effect. I have two ktms with PDS, maybe the newer ones with the more complex valving isnt so much of an issue,although a mates 300exc-e did the same thing. My money is on PDS going in the very near future.

Ollie

[DavidMember]

Ollie wrote:

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rutnut75 wrote:

Quote:

Live On PDS i say. If it aint broke dont fix it. This is one of the things i love about my KTM. No high maintenance linkages! Is there really any advantage to having the linkage?

slamming into logs and and sharp square edged holes,bigtime pogo stick effect. I have two ktms with PDS, maybe the newer ones with the more complex valving isnt so much of an issue,although a mates 300exc-e did the same thing. My money is on PDS going in the very near future.

Ollie

What year models are the Katies Ollie

[GregMember]

I will add to Axel’s bit by saying I dont ride a PDS bike, as a keen and I believe technical minded spectator the three times PDS has really stood out very clearly to me was

a) At the Super X in Wollongong, the KTM race team and all other KTM’s on the night couldn’t drive all the way through the whoops without out the rear wheel falling in the whoops for the last 1/4 of the whoops, where all the linkage based rear suspension bike could and would skip the top of the entire whoops section thus making loads on time on the others that couldnt

b) At the A4DE on the corner we sat at there was a lip/step on the entry to the left hand corner, the KTM’s seemed to kick the rear end up sharply on hitting the bump where linkage bikes didnt, it didnt slow the lap times of the KTM’s

c) At Finke in 2008 the factory bike of Wonka’s didnt seem to drive across the rutted sections as well when we watched it in practice compared to the linkage rear end bikes we watched with interest and in the sand ruts and whoops as well

I agree with Axel many of us wouldn’t notice, but I cant help but wonder do we just become used to it and stepping of a well setup linkage suspension maybe we would see a difference.

Interesting statistic that a well known KTM identity once told me was that when J McGrath had he big crash on a KTM in the USA he and his mechanic blamed the PDS (he had won 7 AMA’s and on every Japanese brand at that time) the sales of KTM motorcross and supercross bikes in the states dropped by over 60% and they have never to this date recovered in that area.

TB

[GregMember]

Rat don’t go all nuts here like you have a little lately OK, its just a discussion people aren’t bagging your beloved orange bikes OK, just deep breaths OK

TB

[DeanMember]

Ktmrat wrote:

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Ollie wrote:

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rutnut75 wrote:

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Ollie

What year models are the Katies Ollie

The Kato’s are 99 models old yes I know but I do like riding them :woohoo: 300 and a 380

Ollie

[AlexMember]

Oh cmon, 99 models?
KTMs still handled crap in ’07!
When they changed frames things were not going to be the same.
The ’08s were the first models I rode and felt comfortable, steered, didn’t headshake and for 2 strokes – didn’t skitter over everything.
I still vote no for linkages on Kato trail bikes

[DeanMember]

My mates 300 exc-e is a very nice bike with the sort of power that I like (bottom end grunt) but the back end kick got me and him a few times. Maybe its a tuning thing I dont know? Funny thing I didnt notice it to bad when I was riding Bulls 525,(probably because I was enjoying the engine to much :woohoo: )

Ollie

[Bruce CurtisMember]

Ok everyone knows my position on the linkageless system.

You use a hydraulic bottle jack to life an F-250, the jack needs to be quite large with lots of fluid and a very tight pump rate, it is slow lifting as the weight is one to one, the vehicle as it lifts rolls to centre itself if lifting too much, causing pressure on the system when you lower it it can be a fight between a sudden jerk and nothing, because of the one to one ratio, this is the linkageless system

You lift the same F-250 witha trolly jack, it self centres and works off a fulcrum, therefore less pressure on the hydraulicsw and the lift rate is quicker and lowering is far more controlled even witH a lesser hydraulic system, they become cheaper to manufacture and safer to use.

As someone stated KTM (and others) try to get away from using rising rate linkages by making a superior shock design to overcome the 0ne to one loading, this puts complexity into another area (in comparison) and demands upon the valving systems.

So what you lose on the roundabouts (linkages) you try to gain on the swings (dampnening)

Otherwise if they didn’t try to replicate the rising rate in the spring/shock setup how could it be anydifferent to a early-eighties yamaha Mono-X or the last of the husky twin shocks?

Bruce

[Anonymous]

Not that I have fully tested my new bike (2010 model for those who didn’t know) but the suspension is definitely better than my 2008 450. My mates old 2006 450 was worse still in this area. I think they are getting a lot better and for the majority of riders they wouldn’t notice a real difference anyway.

You do get the pogo stick effect when not tuned properly but I dialled mine in and all but removed it (without the shock being re-valved).

[dennis da menaceMember]

that is a very good way of looking at it mr blue, thanks mate.
i learnded something today.

at the stockmans last weekend, i decended a hill.. at speed. i could see it was all clear and smooth ahead as i could see all the way up the next hill. 20 metres from the bottom i saw it…. a spoon drain across the track. i hit it holding on tight with my knees sqeezing the bike, knowing what was coming…
i landed the other side of it, square and flat. the kato bounced alright, but bounce well.
it didnt pogo at all like i was expecting.

and we went on our merry way.

i wouldnt know the difference and i dont have the ability to use the suspension to its fullest capabilities.
if i hit a log or a square edged jump, i expect the bike (any bike) to endo and try compensating for it. all bikes do it, maybe PDS bikes do it a little more? mine doesnt seem to but i wouldnt really know.

my vor had Ohlins PDS i think?? it was THE best handling bike ive ever ridden. it did what it was told, even if it was the wrong thing to tell it. :laugh: :laugh: and thats all i want out of a bike.

[DavidMember]

Trailboss wrote:

Quote:

Rat don’t go all nuts here like you have a little lately OK, its just a discussion people aren’t bagging your beloved orange bikes OK, just deep breaths OK

TB

Breathing deep

[Anonymous]

pds is crap its crap on my ktm and crap on my berg my 505 handles better then any other bike i have ever owned
interesting to hear the tm boys say that they decided to go away from olhins as they arent any better then anything else on the market now if its set up right just twice the price their racers stuff is still top class but the average racer cant get and cant afford it
come on rat have another brain snap over ktm because they are shit wrecks lol

[Bruce CurtisMember]

I think alot of the criticism PDS cops is from riders (like me) who ride with a different weighting and throttle application, maybe the bike doesn’t suit them, maybe they don’t suit the bike.

I love the Idea of PDS, simplicity is always desirable, maybe they can get it right for all, maybe they’re pushing it uphill with a stick who knows?????

I rode a well manitained ’06 on the weekend, compared to yours Mr Menace it was a mongrel in steering, forks and rear end response…motors the same tho, lovely things too, after riding my YZ with newly adjusted “stiff as a board” sprung rear (accidentally misjudged the spring rate this time, as my weight declines) he’s decided to sell it and buy something else.

But remember mine has ’03 era type suspension with lotsa work from MPE in ’09 to suit me personally, so it’s still apples and pears to a degree.

BC

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