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AnonymousSo if your KTM blows up, you say you’re going to get a Husaberg – which is also a KTM, just bolted together in a different factory using different bolts in a different assembly order…?
Just checking is all, just checking! Hope those different bolts are better than the originals!
(I probably would do it too, if I had the $$$!)
AnonymousECKS-Man wrote:
Quote:So if your KTM blows up, you say you’re going to get a Husaberg – which is also a KTM, just bolted together in a different factory using different bolts in a different assembly order…?Just checking is all, just checking! Hope those different bolts are better than the originals!
(I probably would do it too, if I had the $$$!)
That’s exactly what I’m saying
It’s not a Gas Gas though so I’ll be stuck with the Kato
Anonymous
AnonymousLike all my best work, this is stolen from another site
It seems many in the motor sports community love to discuss engine oils. And for every legitimate question a rider has about oil, there are normally ten fold the amount of answers. Many of these answers will contain false information to some degree. But, bad info gets passed around so much, and heard/repeated by so many, that misinformation eventually becomes commonly accepted as truth.
More often than not, a manufacturers marketing division will capitalize on any sort of collective ignorance the consuming public exhibits, and use it to their company’s financial advantage. Take for example, the elevated prices we see on oils that are supposedly “Motorcycle Specific” type oils that carry the JASO MA or MB certifications. (Or for that matter, oils that only claim to meet the certification standards, yet have not actually been certified as such)
The public seems to have the perception that these high-priced, aggressively marketed oils must be better than plain old engine oils on the shelf at the service station or auto parts store. They are much higher in price than the car or diesel oils, and that alone tends to say that the product is better…doesn’t it?Many times these high-priced moto-specific oils will also have pictures of motorcycles on the labels. And the wording on these labels also tells us that these oils are specifically formulated for motorcycle use, which tells us that its better oil than one made for a car or a diesel truck, or does it?
Well, maybe the JASO certified oils are better than shelf oils, and maybe their not. There is absolutely nothing within the JASO certification that points to these “motorcycle specific” oils being any more robust or better than ANY of the oils sitting on the car or diesel marketed oil shelves.
The first thing we must understand about oils is how they are formulated. Engine oils start out with base stock oil. These base fluids are categorized into groups. Currently the grouping of the oils is as follows:
Group I Refined organic crude oil
Group II Even more refined organic crude oil
Group III Crude oil that has been through a hydro-cracking process which “super refines” the crude into a structure nearly as perfect as a lab created synthetic.
Group IV Synthetic base stock created in the lab. This group is reserved for PAO (polyalphaolefin) only.
Group V This is also a synthetic base stock which is lab created, and is reserved for all synthetic bases that are not PAO. Esters and other sorts of synthetic base formulations fall into this category.Many oil companies will market their oils as being “Synthetic”, when the fact is that only a
percentage of the base stock needs to actually be a synthetic for the oil to be marketed as synthetic.
And when the facts are know, a “full synthetic” oil will contain not only a certain amount of a true synthetic base, but also percentages of the other oil groups as well, including esters and Group I/II organic oils. You won’t find engine oil, be it for a car, diesel truck, or a motorcycle, that is 100% Group IV PAO, even though the label and the marketing campaign leads us to believe that the oil is 100% synthetic.
And only when the formulator goes above a certain percentage of the non-synthetic bases does he have to call the oil a “blend” of both organic and synthetic base stock.
Also, we know that Group III oils were at one time crude oil just like the preceding categories, but this type of stock has been through a hydrolyzing process that refines the molecular structure to a near perfect state. Close enough to true synthetic in the way it performs that it can legally be called synthetic. Group III base has recently been refined by use of some very interesting processes that produce base stocks from organics that rival the performance of PAO. And today many of the synthetic oils we once thought to be full synthetic like PAO, are now being formulated using Group III hydro-processed organic oil.One thing that all engine oils have in common is the additives.
There are certain products that nearly all engine oils use as lubricants. These additives serve to protect the engine surfaces when the base oil fails, or no longer can protect during extreme conditions. Other additives serve as detergents of sorts, and help to keep the carbon from combustion and other impurities from collecting and forming sludge in the engine.Very little gets said about the additive package of oils on a TV commercial or product information sheet. Most all marketing is centered on the base of the oil, and hardly ever a mention of the additives. But it is the additive package of oils that makes or breaks them.
The base oil has very little to do with the actual performance of the oil, with a couple of exceptions. Group IV PAO’s have shown that they can withstand the degradation that heat can bring about to the oil. And as such, the synthetic base can last longer than its organic predecessors. But recently it has been proven that the Group III hydro-processed organic base can also withstand excessive heat and extended oil changes.Group V esters can indeed provide a bit more protection than any of the other bases. These esters are polar in nature, which means the molecules are electronically charged in a way that they are attracted to the metal surfaces and tend to stick to them once they come in contact. This is a great feature for engine oil, since most of the wear we see on our metal parts comes directly from the wear seen at start-up and shut-off. Once the engine is shut off esters will have adhered themselves to the metal surfaces, and are waiting patiently to protect the metal from wear once the engine is started again.
None of the other base stocks can perform at this level.OK, Back to the myths…
We often hear that we should not use engine oil that is formulated for automobile or diesel truck use. We hear that the JASO certified oils are much better for our bikes.
But the truth is that these $12 motorcycle specific oils may or may not be as good as some of the oils on the shelf selling for $1. There is nothing at all that guarantees us that JASO oils are “good” oils. In fact, the certification allows the oil to be lacking when compared to some of the common engine oils on the shelf. The certification standards for JASO ratings are simply not near as stringent as the standards required for the latest certified oils that are marketed to autos and trucks.
That is not to say that all JASO certified oils are bad…not at all. It only means that there is very little that we can depend on with the JASO certification that says the oil is well built and up to modern standards.On the other hand, the oils of today that are marketed towards autos and trucks also have a certification system in place by various groups. The standards that oil must pass to carry these certifications are much more stringent than the JASO standards.
Just for an example, I can take oil that had a previous certification of SG (for 1993 year autos and older), and as long as the oil will pass a small amount of tests, I can market the oil as certified JASO oil specifically formulated to provide the ultimate in protection for your motorcycle.But engine oil that is seeking certification for today’s cars cannot do this. The certification standards have changed throughout the years, and with each new designation a new set of harder to pass standards are required.
The latest certification standards for engine oils are SM and GF-4. These oils are fine to use in older autos that call for previous certifications, since each new certification starts out with having to pass the previous standard, but with added or harder to pass testing included. SM oil has to first be SL oil certifiable, and GF-4 oil also has to be able to first pass the previous standards.One thing that may be helpful from the JASO standards is the frictional characteristics of the oil. This is an indicator of how well the oil will perform in the wet clutch assembly that most all dirt bikes have. The same oil that lubricated the engine parts also lubricates and cools the clutch, and controls how the clutch acts.
It was seen in earlier years that some inferior oils could actually cause a clutch to slip, or could allow pitting of the gears, and this is precisely why the JASO certification came to be. It was to allow the consuming public an easy way to shop for an oil that would not cause the clutch to slip and was good enough to not cause pitting of the metal gears.
There is absolutely nothing else that JASO certification tells us.The thing is…there just aren’t many oils on the shelf that would cause a problem with the wet clutch assembly to begin with. Sure, back in the early 90’s when the “Energy Conserving” standards came to be that mandated a lowering of ZDDP levels, there were some formulators who immediately started substituting molybdenum disulfide for ZDDP.
This immediately started to show some clutch slipping in a certain model of Honda Goldwing bikes. And right away it was recognized that the molybdenum disulfide was causing a problem. So, molybdenum disulfide hasn’t been used in engine oils for years.
Yes, there is still moly in most of the engine oils of today, including JASO MA rated and certified oils, but the moly used today is a soluble form of moly that causes virtually no clutch variance.
Most of the EC oils that have reduced levels of ZDDP (zinc and phosphorus); will be formulated with proprietary components that the mfg. keeps a secret. Many of these secret ingredients will not show up on an analysis.The myth that using other than motorcycle specific oil, or using an EC rated oil will cause your clutch to slip is pretty much unfounded. Sure, you may find some oil that may well show a different feeling to the shifting and clutch action, but there are just not many oils that would cause a mechanically sound clutch to slip. More often than not, when a rider’s clutch slips it has nothing at all to do with the oil. It will have more to do with the mechanical condition of the assembly itself.
Another myth is that the lowering of phosphorus (ZDDP) levels in recent years has caused oil to be worse than it used to be. This is completely unfounded and false!
ZDDP is a great additive and does a great job of protecting the metal surfaces when the base oil fails to protect. And the reason it was, and is, so widely used is the price of the additive itself. ZDDP is an easily obtainable and cheap component. But there are many other additives available that will do every bit of good a job as ZDDP, but cost the formulator more money. But to pass the stringent standards to call the oil SM or GF-4, the formulator must use the alternative higher priced additives, or provide one of their secret ingredients to take up the slack of the lowered ZDDP. In may cases the alternative additives perform much better than the ZDDP did.
It was also found that even when lowering the levels of ZDDP, the additional component added would actually interact with the low level of ZDDP and the result was better performing oil than it was previously with the high ZDDP level.
In fact, we can praise the EC certification that came about in the early 90’s because it led to advancements in oil formulations that were previously not known. Or at least not provided to the public because of cost issues.But there will still be those who state that JASO rated “Motorcycle specific” oils are much better than common shelf oil and heavy duty engine oils. So, let’s look at the standards.
The following is the requirements of engine oil to gain the JASO MA, MA1, MA2, and MB certifications:
Just because engine oil has not gone through the JASO certification does not mean that it cannot pass the criteria for JASO certification. It simply means that the oil is not being marketed towards the motor sports crowd.
In fact, ANY oil on the shelf that is marketed towards cars or diesels, and has a recent certification such as SM or GF-4, will easily pass the meager requirements of JASO T904.
Sure, all oils have slightly varying frictional characteristics, and some may not fall into the JASO MA range if they were tested. And for this fact alone, the JASO standard has some worth, as it lets the consumer know that the oil has been tested and falls into a specific frictional category. With other non-JASO certified oils we must depend on our own testing or the words of other riders who have tested them. But you will be hard pressed to find ANY oil on the shelf that will cause a problem with your wet clutch assembly. That is if the assembly is mechanically sound.Now, let’s take a look at the requirements for an oil to be certified SM:
We see that the SM service category contains a few more requirements than that of the JASO T904 certification. And as long as the components of the oil do not cause a problem with the wet clutch assembly of a bike, SM rated oils should be every bit as good, if not better, than those that only carry the JASO certification…or those that claim to pass the requirements without actually being certified as such.
But the certification requirements of both JASO and the API are not guarantees that these oils are the best products you can use. They are simply minimum requirements of oils to be certified as a particular service category. There are most definitely some oils that are only SM rated that are far better oils than some that are merely JASO certified. And on the same token, there are JASO certified oils that are much better than other oils that are SM rated.
Neither the JASO nor API standards provide the consumer any sort of indication as to which oil is better to use than another. And price alone is NOT a good indicator of an oils worth.And even more worthless in providing us with the information we need to make intelligent decisions on the proper oils, are marketing campaigns. Only those who really don’t understand the world of marketing will buy each and everything thrown at them by a salesman. The salesman and his advertising accomplices are in the game for nothing more than the bottom line…which is the almighty dollar.
Now, some oil formulators do go the extra mile to provide a superior fluid. And many of these fluids will also reflect very high pricing, but the cost is justified when certain components like polyol esters and high-cost additives are used.
When we consider use of engine oil in a racing four stroke dirt bike, we must realize that there are certain factors that must be accounted for. First and foremost is the fact that oil that is used in both the engine and clutch assembly will see far more contamination than any other sort of engine. This contamination that is primarily created by the clutch materials is far more than the detergent/dispersant qualities of any oil can withstand for extended periods. There is simply too much contamination for the oil to handle. And as a result, we must consider changing out the oil on a frequent basis. And changing the oil frequently in a dirt bike can get expensive, especially if you are using high priced oil.
But what about the oils used in diesel engines? These oils are normally the best at providing contamination control. A diesel engine produces lots of carbon and contamination, and the oils used in them have very high levels of detergents and dispersants to fight wear and degradation caused by contamination. These types of oils also typically contain high levels of additives to help protect the metals in the severe-service, high-torque diesel engine.
There really is no such thing as “diesel engine oil”, but rather oils that are formulated for use in a severe service engine that are called “Universal” or “Heavy Duty” engine oils. These oils can carry an additional service category certification for such extreme duties.
The latest service category for heavy duty engine oil applications is the ILSAC (International Lubricant Standardization and Approval Committee) is the GF4 certification.Let’s look at what is required of GF4 certified oil…
It should be clear to you from the above certification requirements that the GF4 standards are far more stringent than that of either SM or JASO certifications. Heavy duty engine oils are just that…heavy duty. And they are formulated in a way that will serve the needs of four stroke dirt bike engine just fine. This is why we see so much evidence of riders having great luck with the heavy duty engine oils such as Shell Rotella T and Mobil Delvac. Not to mention that the prices of these HDEO’s are very reasonable.
As I mentioned before, just because engine oil states it is JASO Certified, that in no way means it is superior oil. There simply isn’t testing required that would vouch for the quality of the oil or how well it will protect and last. However, when we look at what it takes to provide a certified GF4 heavy-duty passenger car oil, we see that the standards bar has been set quite a bit higher than that of the JASO certified oils.
And again, I am not saying that a JASO certified oil is not a good one. What I am saying is that there is nothing in the JASO standards that would set them apart from other oils, other than the arguable worth of the frictional qualities of the oil.
What I will claim is that GF4 oils are well built, and have testing within their certification requirements that back this assertion up.:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:
Anonymous
Anonymous
AnonymousOkay, after extensive reading on the net today I have changed my game plan. I still think the Dexron III or Type F would be fine in the gearbox but I like the idea of using the same oil in the gearbox/clutch as well as the engine side. It saves hassle if a seal goes and and I get oil migrating from the engine into my gearbox.
Therefore, I am going to scope out costs of the following oils and make a decision there:
Castrol Dello 400
Shell Rotella T
Motul 5100
Mobil 1 Racing 4TI’ll compare prices and availability and see where it gets me. Thanks for everyone’s input by the way too
JRD – I don’t have a new engine? :huh: Aren’t all new bikes run on fully synthetic from the get go?
Man you just shafted that topic Moto, buggar reading that all I saw was blah blah blah lol :blink:
JRD is right also
But after reading none of the above I realised I am right and will continue using Motul 5100 quality semi synthetic
TB
Anonymous
AnonymousAll modern bikes run fully synthetic or semi synthetic from new. They run the oil that they are specify for the bikes future use. After some additional checking there is no need to run mineral oil in modern engines as the manufacturing tolerances are much better than ‘the good old days’ and the metal deposits are negligable.
There you go, I learned something too
Moto wrote:
Quote:All modern bikes run fully synthetic or semi synthetic from new. They run the oil that they are specify for the bikes future use. After some additional checking there is no need to run mineral oil in modern engines as the manufacturing tolerances are much better than ‘the good old days’ and the metal deposits are negligable.There you go, I learned something too
Noooooo
You Know everything…at least thats what I overheard TB and Mick saying
AnonymousLet me know what you think of it Mudrat, especially if you notice a difference in shift feel/neutrals etc.
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