Motocool, what is it ?

[GregMember]

Sorry Menace a KTM 85 they may have done one of those and save money, will edit the post

TB

[DavidMember]

I did mean 4 identical bikes, I will edit that now:)

[Bruce CurtisMember]

Ok a bit of research with a learned mate this afternoon, and Mr Rat, I know where you are at, I just don’t know how you’re doing it, there is limited space to play with unless we use gasket restrictors in certain areas as well, or maybe even more radical approaches, like cutting every second fin off the impellor like we used to do with drag motors .

Thinking in reverse about cooling systems actual functions isn’t it, so far the cart has been thought of as less important than the horse, but in fact the cart is the reason the horse has a job to do…

I love this stuff, it’s mechanics with your brain going back to real basics, and way way cool.

PUN INTENDED

BC

[GregMember]

What about the dyno, all the runs you want under the conditions you request, digital print out, figures Dave they dont lie remember. Lap times on a motorcross track to many variables

TB

[GregMember]

Mr Blue wrote:

Quote:

Ok a bit of research with a learned mate this afternoon, and Mr Rat, I know where you are at, I just don’t know how you’re doing it, there is limited space to play with unless we use gasket restrictors in certain areas as well, or maybe even more radical approaches, like cutting every second fin off the impellor like we used to do with drag motors .

Thinking in reverse about cooling systems actual functions isn’t it, so far the cart has been thought of as less important than the horse, but in fact the cart is the reason the horse has a job to do…

I love this stuff, it’s mechanics with your brain going back to real basics, and way way cool.

PUN INTENDED

BC

Thats the same as the DFSE’s said at work this arvo when we thrashed it out, gasket holes sizing is some thing we do on our C series engine, and block hole sizing on the X series but they where designed from the go get like this but again how much benefit is the question

Lets get one on the Dyno Dave

TB

[Bruce CurtisMember]

TB there may be a basic mistake you’re making here in comparing the engineering level that goes into a world class diesel workhorse that can do literally a million+ ks before a teardown and the development towards longevity that a “revised by the minute” small engine that has one design criteria, to win magazine shootouts and sell more units, I fall into these traqps of thinking which backs us into corners at times as well, I’m defintely not saying anyone is, but is it a possibility?.

there may indeed be bugger all improvement in this area to be done on a 15L 2000ftlb 600 hp evolutionary unit that costs an arm and a leg to buyand has sensors galore, but has that translated into the mass manufacturing highly fickle dirtbike arena, is there improvements to be had?

I could be wrong as i frequently am.

BC

[GregMember]

Mr Blue wrote:

Quote:

TB there may be a basic mistake you’re making here in comparing the engineering level that goes into a world class diesel workhorse that can do literally a million+ ks before a teardown and the development towards longevity that a “revised by the minute” small engine that has one design criteria, to win magazine shootouts and sell more units, I fall into these traqps of thinking which backs us into corners at times as well, I’m defintely not saying anyone is, but is it a possibility?.

there may indeed be bugger all improvement in this area to be done on a 15L 2000ftlb 600 hp evolutionary unit that costs an arm and a leg to buyand has sensors galore, but has that translated into the mass manufacturing highly fickle dirtbike arena, is there improvements to be had?

I could be wrong as i frequently am.

BC

Blue I have offered to have our KTM 85 modified and I will pick the tab for ALL the dyno runs under the conditions they want

TB

[Bruce CurtisMember]

That’s way cool TB, would settle the Power claims, although dyno’s don’t lie but they still can’t tell the whole truth, but probably would in this case. I’m also highly interested in the level of wear that occurs, you know like those fabulous claims Nulon et al made about engine life, but if these lads can extend the teardown frequency and retain exactly the same power characteristics I’m highly interested.

BC

[GregMember]

See thats a whole other issue Blue, to cool a running causes wear, thats the truth, thats one of the three important reasons we have thermostats.

The dyno is the only fair way to work this one out, rather then trying to put perfect laps together on 4 identical bikes if there is such a thing four times over :blink:

I will wait and see what they say, Scott will provide electrical print outs on his new dyno, we can run the them for however long they want without the fan to get it to the operating temperature they want.

TB

On the water pump thing you talked about I will see if I can get some pics of the variable pitch pumps we use, trick

TB

[AlexMember]

Has a gauntlet been thrown down?!! :laugh:

TB, the dyno won’t be able to measure “the vibe of it all”. That’s where the real advantage is. :laugh: :laugh:

Sorry, seriously, I am genuinely interested in the final outcome of this thread. I just hope sooner than later. Let the dyno’ing begin!

Oh, most water pumps I’ve seen run off a pulley and belt. Would you not just change the pulleys?! I’m no engineer. :blink:

[GregMember]

Mr Blue wrote:

Quote:

TB there may be a basic mistake you’re making here in comparing the engineering level that goes into a world class diesel workhorse that can do literally a million+ ks before a teardown and the development towards longevity that a “revised by the minute” small engine that has one design criteria, to win magazine shootouts and sell more units, I fall into these traqps of thinking which backs us into corners at times as well, I’m defintely not saying anyone is, but is it a possibility?.

there may indeed be bugger all improvement in this area to be done on a 15L 2000ftlb 600 hp evolutionary unit that costs an arm and a leg to buyand has sensors galore, but has that translated into the mass manufacturing highly fickle dirtbike arena, is there improvements to be had?

I could be wrong as i frequently am.

BC

Bruce we have some cooling system problems at work at times that make me think that our design team and pre testing was done in the monkey cage at the zoo :laugh: Blocks cracking, heat spots, burnt gaskets, pistons melted to the liner that a 30 tonne press cant get out :ohmy:

Every cooling system can be improved thats never been the arugment.

As I said from the start I thought there could be improvements, but how much is to be gained was the question

Trailboss wrote:

Quote:

I am not saying for a minute that there is nothing to be gained from all this, I know there is, but for the amount of work and cost you are talking about is there enough to be gained is my question,
Remember I agree there are things to be gained, and I have seen performance losses on dynos from a CRF250F that shocked me once the engine got hot, but and here is another fact, the engine is still going to get to operating temperature, doesnt matter how you flow it, doesnt matter if you get rid of all the hot spots as Blue called them, doesnt matter how many pressure problems you fix or even if you increase the efficiency of the pump at high RPM it is still going to get to operating temp because that’s the job of the cooling system to get the engine to its operating temp and try to keep it there, given that its the most thermal efficient way for the engine to perform, between that and boiling is a narrow window I ask again with all the bikes winning championships without it done again how much is to be gained, would love to see some real dyno figures

Again please note I am in no way saying there is no benefit from this

TB

This is where the Dyno run will show the gains at given operating temperatures.

The whole cooling system given that it operates over such a wide rev range is a compromise, (with pump speed and cavitation and flow etc) it is impossible to have it working at its optimum at 2000rpm and at 7000rpm. If you modify components to make it work better at 2000rpm then it will be worse at higher rpm, every action has a reaction, nothing for nothing.

I reckon I know what they are modifying but how do you decide at what rpm range is the optimum rpm to have your system set up for allowing for flow speeds against restrictions and cooling time through the radiators is also critical, given the way a dirt bike is ridden

I will talk with Scott at Battyes today regarding the dyno runs

And yes Bruce I enjoy the brain work, not the riddles :laugh:

TB

[Anonymous]

TB has beaten me too it, but I was thinking about this last night and had come up with the same solution. I’d offer my bike for the mods and we’ll do back to back dyno testing to compare results. I’ll pay for the dyno runs and I’ll also pay for the Motocool work *if* there is a decent hp gain.

NB:- A ‘decent’ hp gain would need to be agreed by both parties prior to testing.

What better way to settle the argument and see the real world benefits and on a bike similar to what most of us ride, not a kids bike (no offense TB).

How about it?

[GregMember]

After a long phone call with Dave, its a thing thats suits smaller engines more, KTM 50’s for sure Moto

Yes its still a compromise, like the manufacturers do it

They make the engine run cooler (coolant temp), but the debate rages as to what the optimum burn temp in side the cylinder is, because they have never worked that out, that would have to be dyno hp figures and gas analysis. Just because its cooler doesnt mean its better / more efficient, there is no evidence to support that claim where gas testing on a dyno will. Certain combustion temps are required to burn the mixture completely

The belief that the manufacturers make the engines run hot just so they wear out and they sell more spares isn’t mine ok

There is so much more, as Dave is my friend I will leave it there for the post, maybe Dave can share some more

Cheers for the chat Dave

TB

Elvis is dead and they went to the moon mate

[Anonymous]

Dave – On these 12 measuring points, how do make the measurments? I mean, there aren’t tappings in the cylinder head available on my bike to do this, so how are they done?

Also, having noted a ‘hotspot’ or area of concern, how do you fix it? How do you fix one point (of 12) in a cylinder head? Also how do you know what effect the mods for the one area of concern don’t effect the others. You do know that any change will effect the whole flow profile right?

[Bruce CurtisMember]

Actually moto, I believe it would be more appropriate to conduct the experiments on smaller more highly stress engines, these power gains (if any) and longevity improvements would be more measureable…for instance I know a bloke who was getting a whole new top-end put into his childs’ SX50 every monday after sundays meet, now while i’m not saying it was necessary the ongoing cost of that was horrendous, plus because of their very nature a smaller piston/combustion camber is usually inherently more efficient at burning the mixture, therefore to my logic more thermal energy is developed.
We were taught many moons ago that hotter can be better for power output complete burn and all that yada yad yada, but at what price to components???

I’m open minded on the whole idea as history has told us many great improvements have come from the backyard engineer… John Brittens name ring any bells?, and that was within our generation

Bruce

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